RAW as I understand it, a completely unseen attacker intends to attack a lone surprised enemy causing initiative to be rolled and if the enemy rolls better than the unseen attacker, he is no longer surprised when the attack happens. How does this make sense? If the target is truly unaware of the attacker, how can he then get an initiative roll at all before the attacker reveals himself?
— Shawn Smith (@MShawnSmith) October 2, 2019
In D&D, you roll initiative when hostilities start, even if there are people involved who aren't yet aware of those hostilities. The unaware creatures follow the rules on surprise. #DnD https://t.co/6zyk3egSFF
— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) October 2, 2019
To be clear, the creature would actually still be surprised when the attack happens then, right? You don't automatically become aware of unseen attackers after your turn if you roll an initiative higher than them.
— James, Favored of Uriel (@JamesDubya) October 2, 2019
The surprise rule applies only during the first round of a combat in D&D.
On any round, you might not be able to perceive a foe, in which case you follow the rule on unseen attackers and targets (see p. 194 in the Player's Handbook). #DnD https://t.co/pvDATLdx6i
— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) October 2, 2019
This sort of bothers me about 5e. In previous editions you could truly surprise players with an ambush etc. now the impact is lost by “roll initiative”. Any thoughts?
— Elliot Birch (@skelliot) October 2, 2019
As DM, you have many tools available to you in D&D to build a fun time. One of those tools is combat, and you decide when to utter the phrase that officially starts a fight: "Roll initiative!"
The rules tell you when that roll normally happens, but in play, you decide. #DnD https://t.co/dn4675Eofi
— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) October 2, 2019
New rules be damned. In my campaign surprise is, well, surprising. I usually make sure to be discussing with the players whatever they’re doing at the time, then hit em with the attack mid-discussion:
Player: “I make sure to examine carefully all around the throne, looking under cushions, pressing decorations that might be buttons, etc.”
DM: “Very good. Your persistence pays off, and a stud releases a catch which drops a jewelled rod into your hands. As you turn around to show the party you see a Bugbear who has stepped out from a hidden door in the book case plant his axe in the Cleric’s shouder. At the same time your chest sprouts an arrow that wasn’t there before. Roll Initiative!”
The rules in D&D are trying to allow an enormous variety of possible actions in gameplay using a relatively simple framework. There will be times when those rules work differently than they do in real life; sometimes these discrepancies are glaring or frustrating, but I don’t believe this is the case in this instance. The fact that initiative rolls can happen before a creature is aware of their enemies is a relatively minor stretch of reality for the sake of effective rules and gameplay.
Specifically, when combat begins in 5e everyone rolls initiative, determining the order of combat. *Surprise is not lost if your enemy rolls well, they still lose their turn during the first round of combat.*
From the PH, pg. 189: “If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.”
Simple solution to your issue Elliot would be to have your players role initiatives at the start of the session. That way you can run the numbers behind the screen. It would allow you to uses the rules as intended while still catching plays off guard with an ambush.
I just love that the article uses a picture from The Ten Commandments movie with Heston!
A DM shouldn’t be calling for initiative until an attack is initiated or a hostile spots you. Plain and simple. This business about calling it beforehand makes absolutely no sense.
I love how the picture for this is a melee non-deadly damage combat between Moses and a bunch of herdsmen at Jethro’s well, defending the water rights of his future wife. Absolutely no surprise in that combat other than one dude in weird duds going solo against a bunch of guys who thought they had numbers. Moses, who is a guy who likely had years of military combat and command experience, based on our understanding of Egyptian royal household education.
1. A player or NPC or monster rolls a detection roll, or spot check.
2. DM calls for a detection check if it is possible for the undetected attacker to be detected by the disadvantaged combatant.
2. If the check fails, or if attacker is invisible, etc, then the attacker is unseen, undetected.
3. Unseen, undetected attacker, attacks, makes attack roll, rolls D20.
4. If attacker is detected,seen, then attacker does not get a free 1st attack first.
5. If so, initiative is rolled before any attacks.
6. DM then calls for initiative to be rolled, AFTER the 1st attack by the unseen, undetected attacker, IF the disadvantaged combatant either up against a invisible undetectable unseeable attacker, or failed detection, see, spot check, because A. Attacker is detected, because a attack usually causes the attacker to be detected, seen. B. The attacked then becomes AWARE of attacker, even if attacker unseen, invisible, because a attack usually causes attacker to be detected.
7. If attacker remains unseen AFTER THE FIRST ATTACK, and AFTER initiative is rolled AFTER the 1st attack by the unseen attacker, then the unseen attacker either gets a + X bonus modifier to hit, or the disadvantaged combatant, gets – X penalty to AC, Armor Class, or Advantaged unseen combatant, gets the 5th Ed ADVANTAGE mechanic that allows the unseen attacker to roll D20 twice, and take the best result out of, of the 2 rolled D20’s. So if 1 D20 came up 9, and the other came up 18, the unseen attacker would keep the 18.
8. If the detection roll is successful, and the attacker is either seen, detected, an or both, then combat proceeds normally with no circumstancial combat bonuses, penalties, etc
I have been DM ing, and playing since 1986.
This is how it has always worked. And I am pretty sure thats how 5th Edition works as well.
But even if the 5th edition rules were to not say that is how it works, and say something different.
This either is how it works or should be how it works, and the only way it makes sense.
And this is how any DM should be doing it.
And if 5th Ed disagrees, then the DM should ignore that, and do it this way, or his or her way as the DM.
And this is the way I have seen ALMOST EVERY DM do it.
And this is the way I do it as a DM.
And this is the right way to do it
Unless the DM disagrees, because the DM is always right, so say the rules
Except when the DM is not right, and if the player doesnt like it, they are free to not play in that DM’s game.