Summon Monster – The Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour!

Merle’s happy fun hour I am your host

Mike morals

I am the franchise creative director on

Dungeons & Dragons and this week we have

something kind of fun to talk about so

they call me Tim you took dad to off

took time off work early for this why

hope it lives up to it because I think

this is gonna be really fun so the last

week we did some monsters before that we

did some monsters and week before that

we did psionics and as part of psionics

we talked about doing class the shaper

that could create like creatures kind of

like something so the I was thinking a

lot about summoning and if you remember

right I was looking at the summoning

spells like like the casting time is

often like a minute and it seems kind of

random what you get and so I decided hey

would it be interesting to try to tackle

somebody named there’s sort of a

different route the we all said a bunch

of announcements yesterday rabbinic and

Oberon so that’s all I get me excited

and I’ve got this so in chat if you guys

have questions about ever on it in

rabbika I don’t wanna try to hit them

here because I want to focus on what I’m

doing

game design wise here feel free to get

me on Twitter I’m at Mike Merle’s

or if you have questions they go ahead

and chat just talk amongst ourselves I’m

gonna try not to dwell on those though

because I don’t want I know some people

they call me tomu took time walk off

work early for this hopefully this being

the design of summoning and pet stuff so

I don’t want to like it too distracted

and if you’ve watched the stream you

know I’m easily distracted I am actually

chaotic neutral that is my actual

alignment so I don’t want to go

wandering off too far but um yeah so if

you’ve got questions feel free to hit me

up on Twitter and obviously in Chad just

just chat if you guys our questions

answered back and forth I don’t want to

go too uh we should we should probably

do something on settings and stuff at

some point but the I don’t want to go

too far off so game Phantom DM we are

back on the Sion somewhat indirectly

because I think we’re going to spend the

entire hour talking about summoning and

then indirectly talking about

pets and how those can work because I

wanted the I wanted to make sure the

soundex worked really well with this

idea of summoning and creating you know

creatures with sonic energy and it’s

obviously sending them out your enemies

having them do stuff you know a

summoning approach it’s a bit more

flexible than what’s in the players in

book right now kind of tank with the

idea of actually building a druid

subclass the shaman to show this off but

I don’t think we need to do that because

I think we just need to walk through how

I want to approach something lying faith

question here will there be more key in

warlock spell casting classes respects

maybe um the probably those will just

end up within those classes the monk

using key the warlock using ink you know

a short rest recharge on spell slots we

definitely have a real compelling reason

to build an entire new class when that

chassis is already there often we can

get that effect by using with subclasses

even within other classes so and this is

something here where this is gonna work

within our spell slot system so I’m

gonna address it purely with in terms of

just a generic summoning spell and what

that might mean so the game phantom this

is more like a new spell that would just

slot straight into the game it exists so

it’s gonna be we’ll see it’s not really

it’s not meant to replace what’s in

there in the players handbook it’s make

to complement because it’s gonna take a

little bit of a different approach so

you can see looming behind my head and

coming into view is this spreadsheet I

poked away at this last night because I

had this really useful potentially we’ll

see chat you might hate this then well

no it’s not useful but this revelation

about summoning and there’s a table the

Dungeon Master’s guide that it’s this

table right here coincidentally enough I

happen to have a copy on my desktop the

that tells you what I spell slot of a

given level is worth in terms of damage

and what is interesting here is that

this doesn’t apply just damage it

applies to healing and so I was stuck in

traffic yesterday I’m thinking about

this and it’s really hot up here in

Seattle and I’m stuck in traffic cuz I

completely screwed up and went the wrong

way there’s a street shutdown

and for some reason I’m driving toward

that Street rather than away from it

because I’m just being stupid

and I realized wait a second these

dimmers also apply to healing healing

does just hit points coming back into

the system and the characters who can

think of it as a system of hit points

they take damage hit points get knocked

out we throw a healing spell we put it

spit points back in your maximum hit

points are sort of your ceiling you

can’t get too many hit points pop a blob

well these could just be the hit dice or

hit points for a summoned creature and

then some of those dice could just be

the damage that that summoned creature

does and since remember when we were

talking about monsters we said look

really we kind of expect a fight to last

for three rounds three rounds is long

enough that it can feature multiple

abilities off work off a character or

monster it’s short enough that it feels

kind of predictable we can just take

your top three most powerful things once

a fight goes to four more rounds there’s

enough randomness and you’re probably

dealing with a big in a fight and big

enough area that’s it starts to if you

try to model that out too precisely you

just end up with very very scripted

feeling system so we just really look at

your top three things and go from there

well that’s actually kind of a nice

thing because I only have to worry about

those first three rounds of damage if

you get more rounds that’s just bonus

you know well played so what we’re

looking at and rad like asks the

question how do we use multiple summons

love bogging down the action economy I

try to think of that too and I think I

have an answer but we’ll see we’ll see

we’ll see so okay the what this

revelation meant was you could take a

first level spell slot and say hey this

could summon a creature that has one D

ten hit points that’s it’s hid died and

over the course of three rounds

does a total of one D ten damage no

that’s a that’s like whoa hey that could

totally work no that’s kind of a lame

creature though right one D ten damage

it’s like five point five on the average

over three rounds that’s less than two

points of damage great I summon

something with like sixty points that if

it hits those two points of damage

hurray summoning right like that that’s

not exciting then I thought of sanics

we’ve talked about Sonic’s

being able to label ladle on more slots

on two one

effect to change it make it more

powerful so what if we instead said hey

I want some of the creatures so I spend

a first little spell slot to create that

creature summon it it’s kind of weak

it’s whatever it is it’s got one D 10

hit died and it’s doing two dansk around

then I threw another switch first of all

spell slot on it to augment it now maybe

it’s doing four damage per round it has

11 hit points instead of five five or

six and then it started to make sense to

me okay so I have a creature I’m

summoning and I can just put more spell

slots into it to make it more powerful

just like we talked about doing with

psyonix right I have a if you’ve missed

the sonic streams we talked about doing

was having this set of can trips that

required concentration and while you’re

concentrating on that can trip you can

expend spell slots to generate new

effects either completely new effects or

in this case I might have a canned trip

level summon is my imaginary friend so I

kind of thought of it shows up and then

I spend my spell slots to get my

imaginary friend more hit points and

better attack give him special effects

or benefits things like that so there we

go

yeah and Mad Hatter up yet and this is

probably some sort of bonus action

effect right like I just do it ladle it

on top but also I’m doing my critter

runs and does things and I’m still using

spells because this takes concentration

I’m not I don’t have the full access to

everything I could do and there we go it

starts to keep things a little bit

simpler and then since I’m expending my

spell slots there’s a clear cost for

this if I just want to summon a monster

in our creature whatever and say hey I

just want you to block this door if

remember we talked about this last week

this is one of the over couple weeks ago

the the real tricky thing about pets and

monsters is battlefield control it’s not

necessarily the damage output it’s not

necessarily you know the effects they

bring with them though it can be if

there’s that does happen but the real

thing that happens is you can summon a

creature and then just block off part of

an encounter area you can you know you

can summon a creature to have a ghost

scout ahead

you can have it summon a creature have a

ghost set off a trap and it’s a it’s a

10 D 10 damage trap well my three hit

points summon creature goes triggers it

gets killed whatever is just a personal

spell side I don’t care I move on the

and that’s kind of what okay so this is

actually now there is more of a cost to

it rather than what is maybe happen if

something in the past

so going back the trap example what you

might do is I’m gonna summon eight

little creatures now I’ve got eight

little trap trigger guys I can deploy

the next eight traps we are we have a

get-out-of-jail-free cards for them so

this is a way in which hopefully we can

make summoning really fun and compelling

but happy appropriately costed and then

what I actually like about is I thought

about it you know that emotional level

of the design and playtesting will tell

will tell us if this actually works but

I like this idea that I summon a thing

and then it’s like I have a relationship

with it I can give it abilities its

Politan really hurts well I’m gonna

spend a spell slot to give it some more

hit dice that’ll increase its maximum

and current hit points that’s why I

imagine so

my summon creatures guarding the doorway

and the orcs trying to batter through

and he gets really beaten up okay great

my turn

bonus action either a third level slot

on it give him five D ten more hit

points and then I fire bolt the orc in

the face is trying to get through you

know things like that and then my summon

creature takes his turn and smacks the

orc you know things like that so that is

kind of the idea here that could also

apply to a pet creature though I’m not

gonna worry about the pet right now I

really want to focus on the summoning

somebody and how that might work so what

I think this is to start with I’m gonna

make a spell so but I haven’t made a

spell on stream before and I don’t like

making us what I don’t like that only

it’s not expensive I’ll be honest with

you had only designing spells so that

spells the game’s like hundreds of them

why do I need more right the the

incremental benefit of one spell when

you’ve like 5,000 in the game is just

tiny right compared to like adding a new

class we only have like twelve so but

we’ll do this and I’m gonna kind of

write this out I have my word document

here what I want to do is call up DNA

beyond because when you’re designing

something we never we never assume we

remember we always assume we’re gonna

forget so we always go back and we look

at what exists and make sure we’re

getting it right so what I want to do

here is just look at all my spells I’m

just gonna grab a summoning spell at

random right well nice things on Deenie

beyond is that I can go to my advanced

filters go to tags and I’m pretty sure

I’ve got a summoning tag handily and

quite usefully added

and then I’ll just come down here and go

both my spells let’s see what we got

all right and so I’m gonna grab now want

this be a bonus action no there’s no

bonus action summoning spells in the

game right now so I’m just going to grab

the closest element I’m gonna stay away

from the the grave the demon spells just

cuz I know those come with a cost

the so I’m gonna throw up here and go

hey look we got Condor animals is one

action great boom so I’m gonna use this

as my guide

now make this at the actually wearing

two columns so we should be fine okay

I’m gonna try to keep an eye on where my

head is so actually know what I’ll just

reverse these because the spell is not

as important as the so what I want I’m

just gonna call this monster summoning

or I guess we do like verb than thing

that’s coming out of it so I’m now gonna

murder our format because I forget what

the actual format looks like the I’ll

clean it up so summon monster this is

when you spell that scales up just like

a lot of our spells do we imagine miss a

lot of that connect spells come in at

low levels and scale up this would be

the same thing the you know actually

it’s really fun to consider like this

format is not the permit we use in our

book so I’m just gonna make something up

the information is going up on screen

will see it it’s it’s cool I’m a

professional don’t worry

the is I find it weird sorry the comic

tome and see this is funny once i like

call it someone like i keep seeing the

thing yeah psychokinesis Terkel apathy

those are act we did touch on those the

question is why haven’t i touched those

yet those when we did do the wizard one

i touched on that a bit it’s interesting

cuz it’s not really something that is

like massively new but it gets into the

what i want to talk in with sign axes

like this solve summoning solve the

things that are like we can’t do right

now then everything else will fall into

place so the only take a quick looks you

have any questions so far so then make

sure I’m not lying the fake up a

question show the very to really be we

work and said you should the Beastmaster

me work that’s an interesting you know

it might be the depend on this

expiration we might find there’s a

better way to approach the Beastmaster

style design and just do a new subclass

which would actually solve a lot of our

the issues that we see

monka for ailments rework I don’t you

know I think it’s more likely

and the chamber warlock – something

falling under here what I would want to

do let’s say I do this stuff and it’s

amazing I never was like this is how

everything should be done from beginning

this is the most likely just to end up

in new options you can add to the game

we’re trying to avoid going back and

rewriting the players handbook we’ve

sold a lot of players handbooks and we

don’t want to create a disconnect in the

audience whenever possible we can solve

a problem by offering you a new feature

that can rest aside the existing

features but that’s hitting the target

of what people want that I feel is a

good good path forward and as I

mentioned went back we’re looking at the

Ranger if we had something which we felt

really was just a pure replacement we

would try to get that out there for free

right we wouldn’t expect you like hey

you really like playing like you know

the Beast Master Ranger you really like

it but you’re really frustrated we’ll

make it available to through DMS Guild

and through DDD Beyond without charge

because we that’s kind of a make good

you know we kind of promised you you

could play this and if you’re trying to

play it and you’re frustrated by it

we don’t you feel like oh now you have

to go buy this book to make the game

work you know that that’s never feeling

we want people to have so the it is

funny – they can we think of things that

are broken one thing I will say I was

making up some pre gen characters over

the weekend and you know I know the

champion is a design that I’m not

necessarily crazy about and I know

people have some issues with but I made

like a half work champion and you know a

half work on a crit gets an extra extra

die of damage and that half work

champion with a great axe like that’s

funny up that’s a go okay this is where

this could work you know it’s hard for

us to just say like something just

doesn’t flat-out work because might be

someone out there playing that you know

a character who’s built to do crits

who’s playing a champion who feels like

oh this is great it’s exactly I want I

like creating a lot this is really

working the but yeah so it’s that we

don’t want to just erase things and put

new things like putting things alongside

then essentially letting the market

place you players everyone watching

includes me – I play the game and let

them just kind of decide what they want

so okay so looking down here would be

possible some of the creature and just

have a really high AC but no attacks

like ten eight points it’s High Noon

that is a great question because what we

want to make sure in this system is we

don’t let you change a weakness into a

strength by that I mean often in games

and we have this concept of hey you give

up this to get that which can work as

long as the this year giving up is

something you value in competitive games

what players will always attempt to do

is say I want to give up something I

don’t care about and get something I

really care about so I’m always wary of

that approach because it is easy to put

yourself in a position of let’s go back

my earlier example my summon creatures

blocking a doorway

I just want to max out it’s it’s AC and

it’s hit points and pour resources into

that I would want that to be something

where you just are expending resources

to get that not well normally this is

the number of points I’d get for a third

level slot but I’m I’m getting that with

a first or second level slot because

I’ve decided to not give it an offensive

upgrade

I prefer especially needy to just say

this is what this costs and it just you

know let’s not attach the drawback to it

so try to avoid that because again then

you just end up in situations where

let’s erase the drawback now I’m ahead

of the curve it makes all the sense in

competitive games because that’s part of

the puzzle but not necessarily doesn’t

necessary fit into D&D so I prefer that

to be more restrict acting like when

you’re playing the game you realize hey

we can normally this would be a weakness

but because of the situation we’ve

engineered through clever play we’ve

been able to overcome this drawback so

yeah things like you know turning the

narrow hallway only one you know the

only one monster can approaches at a

time things like that it’s more tactical

rather than it’s just baked into my

character that I just I just have this

button I press and this thing happens so

okay so let’s talk about the spell so I

wanted to be a first level conjuration

spell

get my formatting everything’s me off

because I’m just taking notes here I’ll

pretty it up and maybe posted to Twitter

probably later on this week the casting

time it’s going to be an action to

summon and then bonus action Dogman

and we want our range you know we don’t

want the creature to be like just stuck

next to you then it spends its first

turn just running up things I think like

60 feets pretty reasonable that’s the

range on Kandra animals components

verbal and somatic that seems fine

duration when the thing pops in I think

I want this to be something the basic

last 24 hours and it’s gonna be

concentration schools give me

conjuration get us just notes here

attack save there’s nothing damage a

factory it’s a summoning so I’m not

gonna worry about that and so okay so

here’s what we go what I want need to do

is the you cast the spell you get a

creature you’re going to get a basic

creature based on the spell slot then

when you add spell slots you get to

decide what augmentation you want to

give the creature the ICO is the

question hell okay that’s I thought this

question here the all about the

eastwards thing Brian O’Brien gold the

CEO of Hazzard was on I did an interview

state time to eat sports waste eSports

and D&D means more streaming so that’s

not it’s just more when you’re on TV

live TV give me an interview you’re not

gonna take like hey let’s explain

everything across the board though an

east they will be kind of interesting we

were talking about that this morning

what would like a battle royale game

look like for D&D what we settled on was

you get to play as a bunch of monsters

so the maybe you start out as a kobold

and you level up to like him at should

become a beholder

or maybe just start as a beholder cuz

that’d be fun and then you play all the

crazy wacky monsters the anyways the

yeah so it’s not like DNA like we don’t

see competitive D&D you know it’s not

something we see as we wouldn’t do they

would just depend on the platform and

where we’re trying to go for though uh

yeah if people really want to do

something along that line and there’s

been events you know that people have

brought that but yeah it’s not if we did

something that it wouldn’t it wouldn’t

change the role-playing game the

role-playing game is what it is that

wouldn’t you know I guess it was less we

saw a demand for it people we really

want to try this then we try to find a

way to make it work so okay so this is

basically my skeleton here and so I’m

gonna bullet point out

so there’s gonna be things you spell

slot determines the few effects I’m not

gonna start adding layers of bullet

points buts gonna be size hit points

protects the rest of the stuff will kind

of get to will see but this is this is

enough for the chassis to build the

creature we want the when are the Matt

question is this gonna be a

concentration loss means monster goes

poor a monster goes berserk good goal

that’s and should me think okay I think

it’d be this concentration I don’t want

you just to lose the spell so oh maybe

this shouldn’t be a concentration spell

you know exercise I think about it I

think making this not a concentration

spell actually might make more sense

because it’s got hit points and someone

could just smack it and kill it so I’m

gonna take concentration off you know

what call me crazy chat go ahead type in

I’m crazy

but I’m gonna take that off cuz I think

it’s unfair if I summon the creature I

want to throw a Sheila faith on it why

not why can’t I do that I’m not gonna

say you can’t I’ll have to play dice to

tell me we can the and so the what we

got here so then basically what we need

to do is take this table that I have in

PDF format here and just again I’m just

gonna rough out what these things might

look like so let’s go over to here it’s

your my head my heads clipping the level

five and lower off so I’ll just so as a

rough estimate I’m just gonna create

create really I’m actually you know

we’re in hack ville or just hacking

around if we actually build a table

using the MS or a table tool because

those do not transfer over to our layout

at all so I’m gonna go full screen so

I’m trying to run with the table tool is

here we go so obviously I want a table

that’s gonna be for cross and let’s just

do this number down so spell level

sighs uh-huh cancel pit points and then

tax and slash damage so what I want to

do with this table is just really here

I’ll do this oops

very quickly translate over this now my

head’s in the way so we’ll go over here

my giant block yeah there we go so let

me walk you through what this

spreadsheets doing the I don’t take a

quick look any questions in chat let’s

see how many summons can I have a good

question

Beauty do be the UM I think I’m gonna

limit you don’t want to start with we’ll

start with one and then we’ll see can

you do multiple summons the main thing

is handling time and then just that area

control I’d rather have you scale up a

monster size and say now I control more

of the battlefield of the counter area

rather than say you get like eight

summons because it also really can

really slow the game down very quickly

the be persnickety and I just want to

bold this just my things so then we’ll

just go hey one two three four five six

let’s see it looks like okay cut off a

little bit I’ll do the rest we get to it

so I think what we want to start with is

I just do here

it’s gonna start it’s assumed size

medium until I have a reason to do

otherwise and so then this is our basic

entry-level summoned creature so I

summon a creature what do I get

the augments will use a different table

again this is just what kind of Hagin

this thing together see what we end up

with so looking at the spreadsheet this

one I worked on last night

I just took spell level I took that

table earlier we said we saw how many D

tens of damages spell is worth put that

here these are our D tens I did not

write 15 D 10 because I want to be able

to write Excel equations without having

to like wear what strip out the D 10

notation so I just threw in the number

of D tens here we go we’ll do this this

would be clear and then this was an

estimate now these numbers are actually

a kind of bogus because this is just the

assuming all those get get got turned

into hit points so it was a deed to D 10

creature it had 98 points I don’t want

that I wanted to be 5050 so guess what

you get to watch me very carefully right

there very complicated Excel equation I

know if you can see this what I’m

writing is I’m going to multiply the D

tens row the number of dice by 4.5 which

is a d8 reserved size medium hit die and

then I’m just going to divide it by two

because basically what I’m doing is I’m

splitting in half the value of the spell

slot between attack and defense this is

a bit bogus because I don’t think my

damage I want my damage to scale up that

way but it’s a good starting point and

then I actually have to do the same

thing over here I can’t just

whatever we’ll just do this goals gonna

take B to multiply it by 4.5 I’ll just

use D eights cuz that’s no this is D

tens loops look like that and then

divide by 2 so this is a sort of total

damage output you’d expect the spell to

have now because we expect this thing to

last three rounds the tip of a fight

the we would have divided by three so

this is just going to be equals this now

that’s a really low number we’re not

surprised that’s only a first of all

swimming so this gives us our baseline

the okay so what we’re looking at here

is we’ve got given a spell of level X 1

to 9 if I was just to take the die

expression from the dmg the number of D

tens that this is worth and then say how

many hit points for this thing have and

how much damage should it do total and

then per round for three rounds and in

fact to be fair I should probably

actually make this 5 it should just be

equal so essentially use some of the

creature and it’s going to have hit

points and then it’s going to do damage

equal to its hit points but we’re

breaking that up for three rounds the

nice thing about this though is you can

see if I have a level one summon it’s

gonna have about five or six eight

points it’s doing two damage around so

it’s like doing a one D for damage with

no modifiers we’re got to kind of hack

things up it’s not gonna be like a

monster in full like minister I’m adding

modifiers and whatnot

to its damage just again I just want to

get this thing a functional I’m not

gonna try to get it perfect

but that is not necessarily super

exciting but it’s a starting point often

just getting the first sort of pylons

down your foundations there and I can

start building on top of it that’s what

you need what starts getting interesting

to me though is again

what I can do to augment these because

what I imagine is getting a creature and

having it hanging around 24 hours is

really good it’s very useful so the and

so I imagine is you probably don’t want

to invest a couple spell slots into

attacks to make this shine now one thing

that the members with the keep an idea

in context oh and I’m gonna just make it

up myself leaning baseline AC speed etc

so some point we have to decide what’s

our starting point to give you a sort of

preview we’d assume that AC should be

something reasonable it’s not like oh

it’s a c10 that does this expend a spell

to make it not terrible it’d probably

come in like what I would do is take a

look at like what’s a C 15 or 16 to be

good starting point that’s what an AC

that a lot of characters can hit pretty

easily at first level you figure a rogue

with leather armor at a deck 16 is gonna

have an AC 14 anyone heavy armor is

gonna have AC 16 or out of the box 18

with the shield even a wizard or any

caster with me armor can hit that so

it’s not it’s not that super super crazy

the and so with that in mind let’s take

a look at the spell progression for

let’s say a wizard or let’s say druid

right cuz druids and something were a

kind of a thing that feels kind of like

that somatically feels like you know

appropriate that doesn’t matter they all

at the same spell progression I just we

haven’t talked about the druid in the

stream before so why not show the druid

off can see this cool art the my head’s

not in the way okay so let’s take a

quick look at the spell progression so

let me see if I can explode this up

there we go yeah it looks pretty real

so we see a first of all Germans gonna

have to first level spell slots by the

time you get a third level you for first

level on to second level so if we assume

that you’re gonna have to invest to

spell slots at a minimum you know first

of all spell slots just to kind of get

something that’s not it can be a bit

more active the that seems kind of

reasonable around third and fourth

levels when you first start actually

doing this a lot I’m okay for not doing

this at first and second level all that

much because when we think of summoning

it’s adding complexities of the game

it’s giving the party more stuff to do

we said it said we have more actions we

have more battlefield control which

having more people and just gives me

more options right you can just get this

thing can just it’s it’s another

character you get the boss around the

other nice thing is we do need have

designed the game set first and second

that will sugar by go by pretty quickly

so I’m not too worried if a lot of

casters are waiting now if you are

really dedicated to seminole what I

probably want to do is create a subclass

that in augment your ability to summon

and maybe you are the player at first

souls just like no I’m spending both my

first of all spell slots to summon

something and then I might have a class

feature

depending on the class I’m playing that

improves that but but I’m okay with you

not being so great at it out of the gate

it probably means something like a you

know a healing class with summoning like

there’s gonna be a natural tension there

but that exists anyways you know we

don’t assume people are healing we

assumed they’re their cannon because

they want to we don’t sort of make other

things cheaper to encourage you to heal

we just make everything cost whaa costs

and you decide what you want to do so

okay let me do a quick look of questions

here the okay so there we go so I feel

like that’s a half tease in place so I

go back to here and my my table here

oops my spreadsheet here and I put this

over here

if I was just to translate this over I

could prop a cat at first level again

just going straight by this have a

creature with 11 hit points and that’s

doing like 1b 4 damage per strike it’s

not super good but it could be useful as

soon as I get a second level spell slot

I’ve got a creature with 90 points now

the damage here this is probably a

little too

well it’s only 2.8 I think back the

envelope but I’d want to do is that

you’re getting about it know if this a

second level spell slots probably get

you a d6 we’d probably just round up I’m

not too worried about over the course of

three rounds or doing an additional 2.1

damage that’s not it’s not the end of

the world we don’t we don’t get that

finicky it isn’t until level fourth

double slot this always throws me off by

the way that the that’s a row five

little four is getting a d-10 so what

that tells me is I’m probably gonna make

this you know what I think this is

probably maybe even approach you the

base summoning spell is gonna give you

this things form its hit points and its

size and then what I probably want to do

then is have an augment to give it an

attack because then even at low levels

okay this thing’s kind of durable I can

still use it to like defend I can still

use it to like a lock down an area I can

still have it scout ahead things like

that the yeah magda but you can stick

and drop will someone I just grab them

and help out the rest the party

grappling in fifth all it does is it

reduces your speed to zero it doesn’t

give it’s not until you get to the not

entangled I was restrained that you’re

actually giving out advantage so that’s

actually something that could um that

could work pretty well okay so here’s

what we’re gonna do here we’re gonna

blow this is we’re gonna add another

column here who fancy when insert a

column and then what I want to be able

to do is just say total value so what

I’m doing is I’m gonna make a column

that just shows my total sort of hit

point and damage value combined just for

use a reference here keep that point

duplicate that and rather than just have

a raw calculation I want to that want I

want a g4 of damage and I’m okay with

that being 5.5 coming out of this and

want the rest going into head points so

I’m just gonna say this is five point

five because I what I want to do then

say is this equals c2 minus e2 there we

go and now I’m getting numbers that look

a bit more useful in terms of hit points

so scaling up much quicker especially at

low levels because I’m keeping my

damaged static so this is my damage my

total damage takes a big chunk out but

then as I just everything else gets

pushed over to hit points I see a nice

quick bump here

so my first of all spot my first of all

summons stays the same but my second

level summons has 11 hit points for that

spell slot and a D for day and it so

this is yeah so this feels pretty good

if I’m coming with a base summoned

creature this is the number of hit

points I’m getting on that creature and

it’s got a D for attack without a

modifier it gets one attack if I want to

make it offensive I had to put a spell

slot into it if I wanna make a defensive

about to put another spell slot into it

and defensive imagine would be it has

more hit points and maybe has an ability

to protect people around it so yeah I

kind of like that how do you guys feel

about that the they call me tell me why

is this someone looking so much

phenomenally better than say fine grater

steed this isn’t flying on if I remember

right from fine grater steed that is

flying is very expensive in 5th ed

paranthas oom dunder so I can see

everything here flying you you get

charged a lot to fly that’s why there’s

like some DMS really don’t like the Eric

okra the they find out yeah it’s just

too good at first so a creature that

just at first of all can just fly

that TRO a lotta DMS really just feels

like it’s just – it’s two fleets it’s

far too flexible for the party to have

access to so when you’re going yes you

get a pair eaten I mean you can get a

Rhino like so here’s how this spell

works you can choose a Griffon a Pegasus

or Parrington or you can choose

something else really because the flying

creatures on the list here it pushes it

up the now we look at the saber-tooth

tiger

this thing has 52 hit points and let’s

see let’s actually look at its full step

like this is our fourth level spell 52

hit points and it’s dealing 10 damage on

a hit

okay so 52 and 10 for level 4 let’s look

at our spreadsheet level for spell so

actually we’re getting this thing is

actually coming up behind it so now the

other thing to keep in mind here is that

this is also a 1-minute spell casting

time sorry casting time 10 minutes so

you’ve got to be ready like you need a

lot of time to bring this thing in the

yeah now that is something that we have

to keep in mind this is all sort of

theory crafting then we have to actually

look at the spells that are here the

cossack 1:59 you can I summon a level 2

creature but with two levels added to it

so here’s how I would want this to work

going back to our spreadsheet I cast an

initial summoning spell that’s summoning

spell based on its level here and is

that big enough yet it looks like it’s

big enough to OPI chiming in shadow this

is big enough

cast a spell I pick the the spell slot I

want to cast that gives me some initial

values I can then expand further spell

slots to augment its hit points it’s a

it’s attack or them potentially give it

other special abilities and I pictures

being dynamic that I can probably expend

spell slots to essentially yeah peel it

there should be a healing effect I can

basically replenish its hit points

probably to discount because you’ve

already committed to the creature to

keep it standing so and these would be

one action to summon and they act as

soon as they show up so the so yeah and

it might be beauty by approach it might

be the idea

ten minutes summon and then you keep it

around and then Ahmad wenting is in

action will see part of it’s going to

come down to how these stack up to

everything that’s out there because of

the existing you know let’s just do that

right now why am I sort of beating on

bush let’s reset all our filters then

let’s vote you are summoned tagged and

let’s just see where we ended up all

right I’m gonna choose I’m gonna go with

well we have one actually ever Kandra

animals its duration is an hour

let’s just go challenge two so and

challenge two giant boar let’s go the

giant boar so an ax murder I forgot

what’s fellas level to spell right

little three spill some this is what

Mike my level three summon currently

gets me and hear what I’m saying is 28

hit points and one D for damage so here

I’m pretty far by on hit points I’m at

28 verses 42 so this is this armor class

is 12 which is lower than what I was

looking at as the standard this thing

can charge and it’s doing 10 damage on a

hit so we’re not super far off we are a

little bit behind but we’re not so far

off and I’m like oh this is just a bad

approach this just needs some more

refinement what I suspect is happening

here that I’m undervaluing the dislike

I’m sorry overvaluing damage right now

sticking you in a d4 in a in a vacuum

makes sense because I’m just saying hey

what’s the mathematical value of this

but we have to keep in mind there’s a

number of things going on in here this

this could be killed so I’ve made an

investment for three rounds worth of

attacks and I got one

we don’t worry about missing because we

just kind of assume like we don’t try we

don’t normally really like super

penalize your offense like your accuracy

to give you much bigger damage we do

that sometimes it’s not standard

typically we just assume a about

essentially assuming a plus 3 or plus 4

ability modifier and then

the appropriate proficiency bonus based

on the character level of the effect so

for instance a third level spell we’d

assume like okay a fifth level character

so proficiency bonus two plus three

probably a plus four modifier from a

stat so it’s acting its attack when it

should be about plus seven so this is

probably one thing that’s that I’m off a

bit here with this dim it should

probably be higher and I’m gonna

arbitrarily because there’s nothing

nothing more fun than just making

arbitrary decisions you know this d4 is

probably good here but it’s well but

it’s it points are lower there’s a funny

thing here it has lower hit points it’s

more likely to get splattered but in

theory it’s fighting weaker creatures so

less likely to kill it one blow but that

probably tells me these are probably

like it might have to start higher and

not scale up as quickly because even

like me with 44 hit points for the fifth

able spell there aren’t too many things

unless you’re really focusing fire

typically your tax get broken out rather

than just being one big attack that

deals 44 you’re dealing like four

attacks that do 11 each at like you know

see our nine creatures and that in that

neighborhood so it’s gonna hit you with

everything or two hits in a crit

thereabouts so it’s a very long way of

saying I think that this damage has to

start higher and can scale up slowly

because the threat of the creature

getting struck down in one round does go

down a little bit as I go up in level so

I’m gonna get more reassured payback on

my my investment for three rounds of

damage so I’m gonna arbitrarily do this

this is always this is a fun thing

that’s when you’re like doing some real

deep game design I do this I’m just

gonna peg the damage at d6 to start with

I mean sometimes you just sort of like

you take an estimate and it you see

where it goes let’s do one d6

let’s do one D 8 D 1 D 10 and let’s keep

it at 1 d 10 for a few levels let’s go

up to 2 d6

again this is just back the envelope

right here it’s the Wild West but I had

that to me starts to be more of a

reasonable thing we might even want to

add your caching ability mod to this

because we might find it’s just not

quite having the impact we want again

we had while this is the strict map

mathematical reflection of the value

it’s not capturing the context again you

could just kill the creature then you’ve

lost your investment the and the

important thing there is that’s an

opportunity cost the monster has

attacked the creature rather than attack

a party member which is nice but that

could also be an AoE that’s capturing

the creature regardless so there’s

really is no opportunity cost there and

you have spent a spell slot on it so you

should get some more reliable return on

your investment unless the enemy is also

using for instance a counter spell or a

disability they’re burning a limited

resource to deal with it so it’s not an

exact thing you know this is gonna be

kind of one of the things we get to kind

of look at it and get a sense of the

feel of how this is gonna play out what

typically happens my experience is you

kinda have this phase to start the math

you go to this phase where chuckling

dealing what feel then you’re gonna loop

back to the map once you start actually

playing and you just yeah this is kind

of thing it’s gonna feel too good or too

weak and then you’ll take a look at the

math and you’ll see okay here’s where

it’s happening we need to bump this up

by a kadai or bump it down by a couple

points so the okay so we have here a

model we have here a creature that I can

get with a third level spell I’m looking

at my third level spell here and seeing

one d-10 damaged it’s not too far off

it’s like half the damage here again

this guy might be a little inaccurate

compared to where this guy is gonna end

up but we are we are not home yet but

we’re in the right neighborhood so I

feel like that’s a pretty good starting

point so then what I want to do is what

I imagine how the spell will work is let

us be a table you have a stop lock and

then you have a table that’ll tell you

here the pieces to drop in so any

questions so far let’s see where we got

here the

well pokeballs comes an arcane focus our

train Derek I guess they could write the

over super you skip what you also can’t

buff a conjurer element with other

spells that’s right because you’ve got

if I remember right these summons are

concentration so that is also a benefit

you’re getting with this spell so and

again that’s one of those things that

you can’t really put a hard cost on it

too easily you’re you can’t put a hard

cost on it that is it cost the system

math tells you you have to kind of

estimate it based on your field all

right so the tennis Toto

summoners con mod to hit point and in

modded image yeah I think will do

something like that I like the feeling

of like that your ability scores matter

and so I think it might just be casting

stat all the way around because I just

might be a little easier that is a

bigger number it might distort the hit

points here but we have ways which we

can kind of if we’re using hit dies can

kind of decrement those a little bit to

account for a mod coming in that’s also

why we wouldn’t well we wouldn’t a Sarah

want to use two mods like say hey it’s

your casting mod for this and your con

mod for that because that’s less

predictable and if this is something

it’s me very signature for people we

want the nature the effect to be fairly

predictable in the sense of I just seem

a summoning druid I just max on my

wisdom I know my summons are gonna be as

tough and is damaging as they need to be

I don’t then have to because of a spell

and start thinking of another ability

score that’s why in fifth edition if

you’re a wizard and you make an attack

with a spell user intelligence modifier

rather than your dexterity and three

five used your dexterity but what it

meant was kind of hidden within the game

you had to figure out that if I was

going to take scorching Ray that I

needed a good dexterity to actually make

that work

the so we wanted to move away from that

but just keeping things more

straightforward so okay they call me

Tommen would disavow magic and this yeah

it actually it would the as written

right now and

you know I’d have to think about what

we’d want to do the one where II there

would be I stack multiple slots into it

to some of the creature and then one

spell counters act that might not be

what we want so don’t think about it it

is a little bit so alright so the what

might be to speak you know I could this

is something I could imagine easily is

that what it might do is might dispel

one of the effects on it and you have to

like you take out each spell at a time

the but that’s something which we do

more in the refine in phase so this is a

half-decent starting point I’m

comfortable here using this I am just

gonna throw in these numbers here for

now my notes my spreadsheet to refer to

needless to say this is something we

require a lot of testing the it’s a

great example of something where math

well mathematical analysis of system is

very good if you’re dealing with two

existing practices because that’s a like

versus like we’re dealing with something

that’s doing something essentially

completely new or the comparisons like

the existing summoning spells are so

different that you can’t be confident

that that is a one-to-one relationship

it gets a little bit harder to just

sorta to theory craft that’s a theory

crafting is very useful it gives you a

very good starting point especially for

what your issues might be but it doesn’t

it’s more theory crafting is very good

to determine what you’re now going to

argue about then rather necessarily tell

you what the answer is

the but like I said it’s still it’s very

it’s a useful tool to have I’m gonna

keep this damaged these hit points where

I’m just sort of charging you 5.5 total

damage even though this is going up

again that’s kind of reflecting my I

think that this initial approach was

under was attaching too much value was

overvalued undone driving over valuing

the damage output from the summon

creature so I’m gonna let that slide I’m

not going to try to try to tank with

eight points so I’ve got my raw numbers

up here still well

I think I’m not too worried about this

because I look at like the second double

spell slot 11 hit points with one d8

damage that’s essentially a first little

character get swatted down in one hit

pull out of the time but I think I’m

okay with this because I think I’m okay

if the typical operating procedure is

you want to put two spell slots into

this to get something that’s gonna be

really durable for your your group the

so I think I’m okay with that so now I

want to add another column here know

what ten minutes okay good oh let’s see

let’s insert a column to the right and

I’m gonna call this points this is

pretty simple what we want to say is how

many if I expend a spell slot to buff my

summon creatures hit points how many

points are to get and that’s really easy

cuz it’s this column right here right

it’s just the numbers right there so I’m

just gonna try this a little voodoo and

I try to copy a page between programs

and see what happens there girls just

did it so that’s just how many points

you should get we talked with buffing

damage this is probably where we need to

be a little more precise so I am once

again I don’t need this what I’m going

to do is I’m gonna change this so

instead of dividing my my leftover

damage by three I’m just gonna divide

the total value of the spell by three

and see what like that number okay and

I’m seeing some numbers here that

already make me pretty happy so the

because they are and they are sort of

human readable numbers I got a three

point seven is great that’s a d6 so the

sort of column to the right

that’s really tiny because of my thing

watching me resize do it this is why it

tune in right to watch me move there we

go let me buff damage and so if if it’s

first level spell saw it gives me three

points seven days per round that’s easy

that’s plus twenty six

it’s my tax in additional d6 damage five

point five that’s easy that’s plus one

need ten now we start getting these

bigger numbers what I’d like to do is

since I’ve got I know I’m doing I might

start giving you extra attacks so I know

that the let’s see 9.2 that’s still it’s

gonna say plus 2 D 10 well now I can’t

because it the next it’ll cost you 10 I

don’t want to give you a tax a lot of

extra tax until a higher level that’s to

d8 so anyways that’s math we can go

through the interesting thing will be

once we get up to here when I’m doing 28

extra damage per round I probably want

to start making this extra attacks and

extra damage and that’s to avoid just

the wif factor the one thing that would

then say is I can’t throw in a buff that

gives me a bunch of extra tax then

thrown another buff that further

increases my damage so we probably need

a rule that says if you apply a buff you

use the biggest buff rather than just

you can stack all these up we wouldn’t

want to do is say like I just pour a ton

of low-level slots into a monster my

summoned creature now it’s just doing

ungodly damage you know it might

overshadow the rest of the party so I

think what I think we could do is also

put it a spell level cap on it you could

say for instance if the number gets too

big over here we’ll just start saying

look you can only go up to a fifth level

it’s a little too good to give you this

damage all the time because it’s gonna

last

I mean I’m projecting for three hours

per fight but I know ideally if you’re

playing smart you want to keep this

around for a long time

you’re good it’s an interesting thing

we’re sort of plays skill we’ll get a

better value return here I don’t want to

let that return get out of hand so and

once I’m seeing plus 2d ten damage on

top place so it’s 3d ten damage per hit

here that doesn’t feel noxious that

feels like okay I feels pretty good I’ve

invested a fourth levels two fourth of

all spell slots to get this that feels

okay

but I don’t want these to start turning

into this thing is just a you know the

damn it starts to feel out of control

so okay so let’s take a look at fifth

that’s a fourteen point seven damage

that’s plus 46 I wanna try to keep it to

one attack to so I can avoid that

stacking yeah okay I’ve just talked

myself into an out of giving this thing

multiple attacks especially for handling

time I’m okay if you get a little

unlucky and you get stuck with okay this

thing just whiffed and did no damage I’m

okay with that because you know this is

something it’s gonna stick around for a

while and you’ll have an opportunity

next round to have it punch someone else

so MD sir ah gee maybe limit limit the

duration of the augmentation perhaps I

do kind of like the idea that I just

alter the stop block then I don’t worry

about it again but yeah but that’s

something that is actually good lever to

have if we find it’s getting out of

control we can we can flip that over so

I had a fan question can other spells

affect this yes enlarge reduce haste

slow I’d expect this should be a

creature that I can throw their spells

on tower mirror thoughts on actual

creature type summoned thinkin it might

be you know I could see four druids at

their beasts I could see four Wizards

their elementals I really would want the

flavor to drive that so let’s see this

is oh yeah this was supposed to be for

the shaper so that would yeah the sonic

version a probably construct the yes and

barracks silver bird this is the shaper

Sion this is essentially the spell we’re

building out that the shaper is gonna

use and that we could potentially adapt

to a summoning spell for other casters

too let’s see

um let’s see what that could think about

here anybody questions um does this end

on a long rest or can I sleep with it

guarding and regain the slots probably I

would do is specify that it ends with a

long rest

the Jessie you’re not carrying it over

probably with the began the nice thing

is you could have it just keep guard

yeah so I’d probably if you if you take

a long rest you regain your spell slots

that that breaks the duration the yeah

so this is okay cool

oh it’s in my head to the way the bottom

table you let’s swap these over so yeah

okay you can see the full table here so

yeah kind of think and stop here and

it’s one thing which probably do is I

thought I would let you buff hitpoints

and probably I’m okay with you pouring

lots of spell slots to increase its hit

points because the what I often find for

players in DMS things that feel broken

to them are things with more extreme

burst potential doing 100 points of

damage in a single attack as opposed to

the fighter model which is just

consistency and giving you more hit

points lends itself more consistency you

know I can hold down this area I could

block the story for a long while well

the party hides behind the creature of

things like that the saw I think I’ve

earned the side of making it more

durable rather than letting it just

throw out tons of damage the oh and the

I hit 24 yes okay probably iterations

probably 24 hours or a long rest so

whichever comes first the will it be

able to go get talk about the Vienna

document I think well that’s kind of

funny things I think you’d want it to be

like pretty independence you can have a

go around and do stuff because in I feel

like oh I’ve got my pot of summoned

paddock and go do stuff for me you can

clean my room right the so yeah the will

the be any way to add special features

monster with just basic attacks nothing

else is pretty boring honestly yeah that

is exactly what I’d want to do and

that’s where I would see the shaper

effects coming in we talked about things

like

I’m not giving people motion sickness by

going up and down this file um like the

vision I had the kind of the iconic

thing was the shaper looks across the

room into the eye of the you know the

ogre chieftain and plucks out his

greatest fear and then shapes a creature

summon creature that looks like that

thing and the ogre chicken screams in

terror right

so definitely and that’s where I see a

lot of the additional spells on the

spell list for the shaper being these

augments what I wanted to build today

was just the basic chassis to get a snap

lock in your hands for summon creature

so this is a pretty good starting point

we’ve got our weight and I think that

this spell comes with buffing damage and

buffing hit points and I imagine when

you throw a buff hit point on the

creature you’re increasing its current

in maximum it’s probably another column

here that’s a healing column where you

might get this at a bit of a discount it

might shift up one column that might be

too good the but you’re probably if

you’re not increasing your maximum

you’re just filling back up to it I

think it’s me worth of it more than this

the yum this might be something where

you also you only take the highest one

you’ve given like the damage I can’t do

46 then pop two for several slots

ditional to d6 so that would make the

healing a bit more useful the human owe

to someone who’s is yeah I think this

was kind of a fun thing is now as I’m

thinking about it is there might be ways

to like essentially put templates on

these things and it might be you could

learn them by class you can learn them

at a spell you learn like there could be

someone who’s there could be summon

beast and then you get some basic

flavorful elements like the use might be

its basic attack is acid the beasts

would be like your choice of bludgeoning

piercing or slashing so I think it’s

probably like this chassis would then

get adapted yeah that might make a lot

of sense where the shapers might be like

some an astral construct and it gives

you a construct with some basic thing

maybe it’s doing a psychic damage with

its attacks and then we can make one for

Druids you can make for druids could

have summon beast and like maybe summon

totem wizards could get like summon

elemental source wizards and sorcerers

warlocks could get like summon fiend and

then you get some other cool effects I

really want this in my game now I really

want this in my game that’s the fun

thing about it is you could really gate

access to the spell

through subclasses or through choices so

how do you feel about this everyone feel

like this is making sense does this feel

like a good place to start I mean

obviously the math I just can’t I just

want to get in the neighborhood it’s not

necessarily coming home yet

the zones fact meeting right who’s that

ever again it’s not concentration

barbarians okay now I want to make that

we did that remember the disaster

barbarian we had this idea that he could

like summon creatures like I loved it

the Barbarian radio is like a fire

lentil appears around him it’s just

someone oh and I actually want to I want

to design that okay okay so I think

we’re pretty good okay so this is

something where we’re gonna play around

with it

yeah alder brain warlock could summon a

gaze to see is a child our King

Butterfree thanks always appreciate the

compliments okay cool I think yeah I was

to me this is something I get excited

this at the stage in design when it’s

like I want to make a bunch of things

using this the danger is you don’t want

to fall so in love with this that you

just then start charging forward even as

cracks start to appear so this is

something where playtesting is really

going to start giving us some proof

points here and while I let’s say this

is this is something I was working on

like a product at this stage I’d want to

just like stop make the simplest

implementation of this table and the

spell you see and do some testing with

it just build out what are these stat

blocks look like look at them compared

to think this is when you have to

don’t rush ahead don’t start getting the

specific concepts of cause I’m in fiend

7 news someone this and that some and

everything right we want to take a

moment go duh is this a strong

foundation let’s bang on this a bit do

these numbers hold up does this feel

good in play then put the energy indeed

those flourishes don’t don’t start

decorating the cake before it’s baked

right you don’t want to like you’ve got

your batter and it’s cooking you’re

throwing the frosting and the decorate

now it’s gonna be a mess so let give it

time

let it bake it’s you know if if you

watch baking shows or you know it’s like

baking it’s been more art than science

or is it the reverse either way

give it time give it time in the oven

put the hard work into it test it out

don’t what often I find was and

designers have problems is they fall in

love with an idea

they throw a ton of work into it too

early they haven’t proved out the basic

foundation so they throw in all this

flourish work and then they start

throwing good good effort after bad it’s

a path that really like no it’s time to

fall back and take a new route beef like

I put so much work into a nod I’m

throwing all this stuff out you want to

be cautious at the initial stages of

this design it’s good that I’m feeling

excited but it’s also a warning sign

that I need to make sure I pump the

brakes don’t get too far ahead of myself

and make sure I’m doing the frankly it

would be kind of boring work of

verifying that this is functional it

probably needs some more tweaks but

before I start going hog-wild with it

I’ve got to make sure that I’ve got a

strong foundation of building on all

right yeah shell off the magnanimous

sunk cost fallacy but in design exactly

so so that’s it for this week next week

we’ll pick this up this coming actually

I think I’m on the next segment for the

stream we’re gonna talk about the

founders of legends day this coming

weekend on Saturday I’m going on to LA

to stream another D&D game not quite

following up with the same basic concept

as the stream of many is we’re gonna be

celebrating the legacy and memory of

Gary Gygax and other folks who helped

create Dungeons and Dragons so I’m super

excited I’m gonna probably have to go

next door to start streaming over there

I try to get a lot of water first though

I am partial as they say so um I will

see you all next week and on Twitter if

I have any more breakthroughs with this

stuff I’ll tweet I’ll tweet them out I

made a Mike mortal soul one word all

right so until next week take care and I

will see probably a few even just a

couple six around I’ll just see you in a

couple more minutes so take care